Maybe I’m coming from a different perspective but I see plenty of pseudo-Chinese fantasy books on the shelves, White folks learning to cook Chinese, people reading Tang Dynasty poetry, etc.
I think the political conflict between the PRC and the West and Xi Jinping’s policies do a lot to weaken Chinese soft power, though.
Being under the Communist thumb all these years means people don't necessarily have an accurate view of Chinese culture. Increasingly, in literature at least, that is starting to change.
And the Chinese have better food than the Japanese...
I am married to a woman of Japanese descent; have been for 40 years.
I agree with most--and maybe all--of your observations regarding the source of most of east Asian conventions and cultural veneers. I cannot speak to Korean nuances, but three of the most important ones I'm aware of are Shinto-ism, the way of affixing group blame for an individual's short-comings, and the levels of life expectancies of the general run-of-the-mill common man.
Shinto is self-reverential worship in a sense. The notion that the past. current, and future emperor is a literal descendant of the sun, and that his native subjects are therefore in some diffuse way also related to the sun, causes them to set themselves apart simply on grounds of divine inspiration of race.
The convention, as in China and much of East Asia, of putting the family name first, with the given name in a subordinate position, shows the western observer that enduring family identity trumps individual identity and therefore the sins (and the successes) of the individual is shared by the family, fairly or unfairly.
Thusfar this seems pretty close in both China and Japan, but the Japanese take this to lengths that may not be paralleled in China, and most importantly, this group responsibility is what drives the individual Japanese to attempt near-perfection in crafts and smaller scale manufacturing, where the individual's contribution to the finished product is recognizable to culture as a whole.
I think also that part of the differences between Chinese and Japanese *general cultural sensibilities* is that, as I understand it, the Chinese emperor, and hence leadership, operates under "the mandate of heaven", which is a flowery way of saying leadership can remain so long as it's competent in governing the nation in general. In this sense the average Chinese expected that *something*, however little it might be, is theirs by the simple fact of existence, but in Japan, where the general populace was disarmed multiple times and left at the mercy of the armed classes of nobles and samurai, this deep belief in individual rights--however limited--is almost entirely absent. It was their primary duty in life to behave themselves in relation to their betters (in this sense they use Confuscian concepts to reinforce the reality of rigid social hierarchies, rather than see it as a useful system for a nation to adopt), and their betters were infallible, just as the emperor did not need the mandate of heaven, since he was in a sense, heaven itself.
Really, docility and default subservience are the primary differences in cultural sensibilities, for better or worse.
Good observations, all. One way (not necessarily the only way) to describe Japan would be as a land that was cultured and civilized by Chinese influence, adding local elements to the mix, and sublimated all of that into an unique thing that is very appealing for many because of its strangeness and effectiveness (as you well know, Japan is clean, safe and prosperous) and also because of other reasons that I discussed in the post. I wouldn't want to come across as a Japan-hater, I do appreciate Japanese people and their culture and their country, and wish there were more Japanese in the world.
This is interesting to think about. Please bear in mind that while I've know quite a few Chinese people, most of whom are Chinese nationals, I've not been around them enough to observe and evaluate the real essence of Chinese culture, so my observations are certainly incomplete and pretty superficial. But here goes...
Here in the US it's *very* easy to find Chinese businesses run by Chinese nationals or 1st gen offspring. They apparently (to me, at least) came here voluntarily, purposely looking for opportunity. I'm aware that the earliest Chinese were brought here for labor, as were the Japanese, but the Chinese seemed motivated to find individual opportunity, whereas it's very hard to find any such Japanese enterprises *except for those designed to sell to a Japanese client base*. I suspect that Chinese enterprises may have started this way, but they also made conscious efforts to optimize their businesses to sell to non-Chinese, as well.
Funny, though: both 2nd, 3rd, and beyond Chinese and Japanese tend to converge as professionals--their forebears may have been shop keepers, laborers, etc. but they very quickly entered the ranks of doctors, engineers, researchers, etc.
I'd also generalize somewhat by saying that any separate national group that is located close to the Chinese is bound to have something of a national inferiority complex. Chinese cultural accomplishments are many , diverse, and happened early and have continued. Japanese leadership has always been quick to recognize practical advantages and to adopt them so far as they did not threaten the leadership's authority.
I'll close with a sort of funny, ethnocentric observation, and since you're married to an Asian woman, you'll know that these observations are not considered unwarranted or rude in conversation, at least as far as I can see. The observation is that:
The Chinese can make *anything*, to any level of quality, from very low to superb, but it's going to be up to the buyer to figure out which is which. The Japanese, on the other hand, can make *almost* anything, but personally fear to make it less than at least generally acceptable, so as not to shame the family--symbolically if not in actuality. So mediocre is the worst you're likely to get from Japanese manufacture, and if it's a hand-craft it'll be very, very high indeed, but the Chinese will cheerfully make anything that a buyer will accept, and this will be anywhere from absolute junk to the finest quality; it'll be up to the buyer to discern, and in that sense it's a kind of a test of the buyer.
Yup, excellent stuff indeed. Then there's, for Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc, the other side of the coin: you may be in Haiti or in Peru, but people will look at you and they will call you "Chinese."
korean shit has only gotten respectable over the past +20 years. they’ve copied the japanese more than the chinese regarding vehicle and electronics manufacturing. kaizen-ish.
I think you don't quite come out and say this, but the lack of common knowledge in the west of the pre-modern Chinese origins of many Japanese cultural expression comes down to two key historical factors:
1) Westerners were often first exposed to these artistic traditions via contact with Japanese versions starting in the late 19th century. This is directly true of woodblock prints, and to a lesser degree true of
2) for much of the 20th century, the Chinese governments (plural) were concerned about projecting an image vitality and modernization, and so went out of their way NOT to promote many traditional Chinese arts to a foreign audience.
Contrary your claims of ongoing erasure of Chinese history and culture, I see rather the opposite happening. Since the around 2015 or so, there has been a significant rise in Chinese-flavored cultural productions that become popular with western audiences, or are even deliberately targeted at western audiences. In this respect, I wonder if genre fiction like "The Three Body Problem" may be a leading indicator of things to come, much as the arrival of early Japanese cultural imports in the mid-1970s (early arcade games, 'kung fu' films) presaged the later mainstream impact of Japanese popular and high culture in the 1990s and early 2000s.
What you’re saying might be true, but doesn’t account for a common truth. Japan is much more civilised than China. That seems to be changing with the generations but is still observable in a large amount of Chinese.
I don’t know the historical roots of this. Im not across it, but Ive interacted with a lot of both, and so have many others.
Maybe I’m coming from a different perspective but I see plenty of pseudo-Chinese fantasy books on the shelves, White folks learning to cook Chinese, people reading Tang Dynasty poetry, etc.
I think the political conflict between the PRC and the West and Xi Jinping’s policies do a lot to weaken Chinese soft power, though.
Being under the Communist thumb all these years means people don't necessarily have an accurate view of Chinese culture. Increasingly, in literature at least, that is starting to change.
And the Chinese have better food than the Japanese...
I am married to a woman of Japanese descent; have been for 40 years.
I agree with most--and maybe all--of your observations regarding the source of most of east Asian conventions and cultural veneers. I cannot speak to Korean nuances, but three of the most important ones I'm aware of are Shinto-ism, the way of affixing group blame for an individual's short-comings, and the levels of life expectancies of the general run-of-the-mill common man.
Shinto is self-reverential worship in a sense. The notion that the past. current, and future emperor is a literal descendant of the sun, and that his native subjects are therefore in some diffuse way also related to the sun, causes them to set themselves apart simply on grounds of divine inspiration of race.
The convention, as in China and much of East Asia, of putting the family name first, with the given name in a subordinate position, shows the western observer that enduring family identity trumps individual identity and therefore the sins (and the successes) of the individual is shared by the family, fairly or unfairly.
Thusfar this seems pretty close in both China and Japan, but the Japanese take this to lengths that may not be paralleled in China, and most importantly, this group responsibility is what drives the individual Japanese to attempt near-perfection in crafts and smaller scale manufacturing, where the individual's contribution to the finished product is recognizable to culture as a whole.
I think also that part of the differences between Chinese and Japanese *general cultural sensibilities* is that, as I understand it, the Chinese emperor, and hence leadership, operates under "the mandate of heaven", which is a flowery way of saying leadership can remain so long as it's competent in governing the nation in general. In this sense the average Chinese expected that *something*, however little it might be, is theirs by the simple fact of existence, but in Japan, where the general populace was disarmed multiple times and left at the mercy of the armed classes of nobles and samurai, this deep belief in individual rights--however limited--is almost entirely absent. It was their primary duty in life to behave themselves in relation to their betters (in this sense they use Confuscian concepts to reinforce the reality of rigid social hierarchies, rather than see it as a useful system for a nation to adopt), and their betters were infallible, just as the emperor did not need the mandate of heaven, since he was in a sense, heaven itself.
Really, docility and default subservience are the primary differences in cultural sensibilities, for better or worse.
Good observations, all. One way (not necessarily the only way) to describe Japan would be as a land that was cultured and civilized by Chinese influence, adding local elements to the mix, and sublimated all of that into an unique thing that is very appealing for many because of its strangeness and effectiveness (as you well know, Japan is clean, safe and prosperous) and also because of other reasons that I discussed in the post. I wouldn't want to come across as a Japan-hater, I do appreciate Japanese people and their culture and their country, and wish there were more Japanese in the world.
This is interesting to think about. Please bear in mind that while I've know quite a few Chinese people, most of whom are Chinese nationals, I've not been around them enough to observe and evaluate the real essence of Chinese culture, so my observations are certainly incomplete and pretty superficial. But here goes...
Here in the US it's *very* easy to find Chinese businesses run by Chinese nationals or 1st gen offspring. They apparently (to me, at least) came here voluntarily, purposely looking for opportunity. I'm aware that the earliest Chinese were brought here for labor, as were the Japanese, but the Chinese seemed motivated to find individual opportunity, whereas it's very hard to find any such Japanese enterprises *except for those designed to sell to a Japanese client base*. I suspect that Chinese enterprises may have started this way, but they also made conscious efforts to optimize their businesses to sell to non-Chinese, as well.
Funny, though: both 2nd, 3rd, and beyond Chinese and Japanese tend to converge as professionals--their forebears may have been shop keepers, laborers, etc. but they very quickly entered the ranks of doctors, engineers, researchers, etc.
I'd also generalize somewhat by saying that any separate national group that is located close to the Chinese is bound to have something of a national inferiority complex. Chinese cultural accomplishments are many , diverse, and happened early and have continued. Japanese leadership has always been quick to recognize practical advantages and to adopt them so far as they did not threaten the leadership's authority.
I'll close with a sort of funny, ethnocentric observation, and since you're married to an Asian woman, you'll know that these observations are not considered unwarranted or rude in conversation, at least as far as I can see. The observation is that:
The Chinese can make *anything*, to any level of quality, from very low to superb, but it's going to be up to the buyer to figure out which is which. The Japanese, on the other hand, can make *almost* anything, but personally fear to make it less than at least generally acceptable, so as not to shame the family--symbolically if not in actuality. So mediocre is the worst you're likely to get from Japanese manufacture, and if it's a hand-craft it'll be very, very high indeed, but the Chinese will cheerfully make anything that a buyer will accept, and this will be anywhere from absolute junk to the finest quality; it'll be up to the buyer to discern, and in that sense it's a kind of a test of the buyer.
Yup, excellent stuff indeed. Then there's, for Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc, the other side of the coin: you may be in Haiti or in Peru, but people will look at you and they will call you "Chinese."
Hah, hah...yes, "la chinita" while vacationing in Mexico!
People don't like Chinese stuff because it's shit.
korean shit has only gotten respectable over the past +20 years. they’ve copied the japanese more than the chinese regarding vehicle and electronics manufacturing. kaizen-ish.
True. It's mostly the K-pop craze and Gangnam Style and the rest, which is cool and such, but still derivative.
Chinese and Americans are brothers in being chauvinistic, materialistic, and shallow cultures. I think they will learn to appreciate each other.
I think you don't quite come out and say this, but the lack of common knowledge in the west of the pre-modern Chinese origins of many Japanese cultural expression comes down to two key historical factors:
1) Westerners were often first exposed to these artistic traditions via contact with Japanese versions starting in the late 19th century. This is directly true of woodblock prints, and to a lesser degree true of
2) for much of the 20th century, the Chinese governments (plural) were concerned about projecting an image vitality and modernization, and so went out of their way NOT to promote many traditional Chinese arts to a foreign audience.
Contrary your claims of ongoing erasure of Chinese history and culture, I see rather the opposite happening. Since the around 2015 or so, there has been a significant rise in Chinese-flavored cultural productions that become popular with western audiences, or are even deliberately targeted at western audiences. In this respect, I wonder if genre fiction like "The Three Body Problem" may be a leading indicator of things to come, much as the arrival of early Japanese cultural imports in the mid-1970s (early arcade games, 'kung fu' films) presaged the later mainstream impact of Japanese popular and high culture in the 1990s and early 2000s.
think of what the nazis did to german culture
for centuries the german speaking people were the cultural engine of europe
and the nazis burned it all to the ground
I think the ccp did something similar to chinese culture with only remnants surviving in hong kong
south korea and japan otoh never suffered this kind of cultural vandalism
Good point, yes. China was for a long time associated with crazy politics and people in identical suits. Not a great propaganda plan.
What you’re saying might be true, but doesn’t account for a common truth. Japan is much more civilised than China. That seems to be changing with the generations but is still observable in a large amount of Chinese.
I don’t know the historical roots of this. Im not across it, but Ive interacted with a lot of both, and so have many others.