Saying that Spartans has no slaves because you call Helots ‘serfs’ instead is misleading. A society where a small warrior elite oppresses a massive unfree class of people is not ‘freedom loving’.
I'm not saying that the Spartans were, under our frame of reference, freedom loving. I'm saying that, under antiquity's frame of reference, they were, because every other society was perceived (by members of those societies) to be much less free than Sparta's. Hence the examples from Greece and Rome, for example. Also, every other society had serfs as well as slaves at the time.
It seems to me we need to go beyond how contemporaries described them, and look at what is being described. How free were Spartiates really? We get a vision of an extremely conformist, tradition-bound elite. Whose freedom did they love? The idea that they overthrew tyrants is interesting, but out of love of freedom? How many tyrants did they overthrow? During the Peloponnesian war they were more known for overthrowing democracies.
“The Tragedy of The Neocons is they wanted an Empire, but they wanted to commute to work.”
- myself, a humble soldier.
“the ear of the DC foreign policy establishment and he wants to tell them how to do imperialism right.” But They have no ears, they want an app for Empire.
Not for strategic depth, not for distance, not for resources, not for trade, certainly not for economics. Most importantly America is inescapably a series of Federations from the Iroquois to the Internet, including the present Federalist Republic of 1789. We 🇺🇸 cannot escape this core history and fact anymore than we can escape geography.
Federations cannot do Empire.
The Iroquois and then the Crown failed trying exactly Empire.
Nor can we afford Empire, indeed whatever temporary emergencies of the past justified Empire it has all been an expensive and dangerous luxury since 1989.
The Luxury enjoyed by few, the Danger by many, as we see the People have had enough.
Saying that Spartans has no slaves because you call Helots ‘serfs’ instead is misleading. A society where a small warrior elite oppresses a massive unfree class of people is not ‘freedom loving’.
I'm not saying that the Spartans were, under our frame of reference, freedom loving. I'm saying that, under antiquity's frame of reference, they were, because every other society was perceived (by members of those societies) to be much less free than Sparta's. Hence the examples from Greece and Rome, for example. Also, every other society had serfs as well as slaves at the time.
It seems to me we need to go beyond how contemporaries described them, and look at what is being described. How free were Spartiates really? We get a vision of an extremely conformist, tradition-bound elite. Whose freedom did they love? The idea that they overthrew tyrants is interesting, but out of love of freedom? How many tyrants did they overthrow? During the Peloponnesian war they were more known for overthrowing democracies.
I was going to make this point (the helos were treated HORRIBLY)
*helots
“The Tragedy of The Neocons is they wanted an Empire, but they wanted to commute to work.”
- myself, a humble soldier.
“the ear of the DC foreign policy establishment and he wants to tell them how to do imperialism right.” But They have no ears, they want an app for Empire.
Many in DC make a good living off Forever Wars.
Yes, we noticed.
We noticed a great many things.
Notice Female empowerment requires mass serfdom or slavery.
We noticed already .
An oppressive ruling class that maintains its way of life by terrorizing the working class (the Helots) is hardly a radical experiment in liberty.
Maybe, but certainly not fascism.
Certainly not ! 🤨
My take is they wanted to be Left alone. Unfortunately unless you’re on a well defended island that doesn’t work long.
However It certainly works for a long period.
It’s almost like academia… how terrible.
America has no need of Empire.
Not for strategic depth, not for distance, not for resources, not for trade, certainly not for economics. Most importantly America is inescapably a series of Federations from the Iroquois to the Internet, including the present Federalist Republic of 1789. We 🇺🇸 cannot escape this core history and fact anymore than we can escape geography.
Federations cannot do Empire.
The Iroquois and then the Crown failed trying exactly Empire.
Nor can we afford Empire, indeed whatever temporary emergencies of the past justified Empire it has all been an expensive and dangerous luxury since 1989.
The Luxury enjoyed by few, the Danger by many, as we see the People have had enough.
And you should stop now.
Just quietly go away.
Ta.